French lawyer Joseph Breham, whose phone was infected with Pegasus spyware, answers questions from Radio France’s Investigation Unit.
Lawyer Joseph Breham is one of the French personalities whose phone has been targeted by the Moroccan authorities using the spyware Pegasus, of which the investigation of an international media consortium, of which the Cellule investigation de Radio France is part, establishes that he was diverted from his original role.
Amnesty International’s analysis of your phone has shown that you have been spied on by a Moroccan operator. Does this revelation surprise you?
Joseph Breham: Yes, obviously that surprises me, even if, when you work in human rights, and when you try to advance a number of causes, you know that these things are possible. I am not Jason Bourne! There, I have the impression of having moved into another world.
You have dealt with many cases related to the defense of human rights in Morocco as well as cases relating to Western Sahara. Do you see a link there?
From 2011-2012, my office managed a case that led Morocco to block judicial cooperation between France and Rabat. It may indeed be linked to this type of case in which we denounced the Moroccan torture system and serious violations of international humanitarian law by Morocco in Western Sahara. However, we are not the biggest law firm on the planet. All we do is do a little “brain juice”, work on a computer, with two paper clips and three rubber bands … And that a State is ready to put in means as strong, as violent – “violent” in the sense of “violation” – of privacy, which requires so many resources, so much energy, I find that amazing. It shows that these dictatorial or quasi-dictatorial states are in fact colossi with a foot of clay. That means that all it takes is a little bit of freedom of expression and a little bit of law for them to start freaking out completely and skidding like this is not allowed.
Analysis by Amnesty International’s Security Lab shows that you were targeted between September and December 2019. Do you understand why you could have been a “target” at that time?
It turns out that a few months before, Claude Mangin who is the French wife of Naâma Asfari, one of the leaders of the Sahrawi cause, unjustly imprisoned for ten years, was expelled from Morocco for the umpteenth time. We were therefore in the midst of negotiations with the French authorities, concerning Morocco, so that she could finally go and see her husband in detention. At that time, we were also working on fairly severe, substantiated, and documented complaints concerning political prisoners.
This question of Western Sahara – about which little is said in France – is central for the Moroccan authorities?
It is certain that the Moroccan security apparatus has an incredible obsession with this question. It is the cornerstone of all Moroccan diplomacy. It should be understood that in international humanitarian law, there is no debate on this. Western Sahara is an autonomous territory colonized by Morocco. But the simple fact of saying that, while it is accepted by all international jurists, is considered in Morocco as a special violation of Moroccan law, the translation of which would be “undermining the integrity of the kingdom”. This was blamed on me and on association leaders. To give you an example: during a trial of Naâma Asfari, as soon as we started to raise this question, we were systematically cut off by the president or the prosecutor. They were cutting our microphones. They called in the police to block the hearing.
In fact, as soon as the Saharawi question is asked, we are no longer faced with rational interlocutors, we are faced with people who “Kim Jong-un-ize” if we can say so. It is no longer Morocco as we know it, a welcoming country, quite open, but it is North Korea, 2,000 kilometers from Paris. The Moroccan security apparatus has succeeded in giving itself the appearance of a very friendly country, very welcoming to vacationers, but to camouflage what it really is for political opponents, that is to say, one of the worst dictatorships.
What our investigation shows is that a Moroccan service or operator has the ability to monitor targets abroad, via their phones. What follow-up do you plan to give to this affair?
I will file a complaint about a breach of professional secrecy, for concealment of breach of professional secrecy, for interception of correspondence, and probably for breach of an automated data processing system. Then the ball will be in the court of the French judicial authorities and the French government authorities.
“Until now, the French government has tended to cover up Moroccan actions and roll out the red carpet for them.” Joseph Breham, lawyer to franceinfo
I remind you that our current Minister of Justice is a former lawyer from Morocco, in a somewhat well-known case, and we have the feeling that there is really a strong porosity between the Moroccan administrations and the French administrations.
In 2012, when there was this suspension of cooperation agreements by Morocco, France had accepted a completely delusional memorandum of understanding which required the French authorities to return to Morocco all complaints lodged in France against Moroccan officials. Obviously, no business or very few have been successful. So today the question is: what room for maneuver will be left to the judicial authority, to the prosecution services?
What does it feel like when you say to yourself that you may have had a cookie in your pocket for several months?
As a lawyer, we say to ourselves that we have done well to take all possible precautions and always bring our clients physically as soon as there are very complicated discussions. And as human beings, we feel a little dirty, because, like any other person, I have flaws, I get angry sometimes, I’m not always all white … At the same time, we say to ourselves that it legitimizes the work we have done. But what bothers me the most in the story is telling me that my phone may have been used as a “mood” microphone, that they know my children’s first names, where they are going. at school, the misfortunes, the pleasures, the little sorrows, and the great joys of my kids… This is the reason why I will go all the way.
